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[Music] I think it's the situation between the cholecalciferol or the 25-hydroxyform and the 1,25-dihydroxy. The relationship is very analogous to what happens when your thyroid is low, your actual thyroid hormone. Your body increases the TSH, thyroid stimulating hormone, in supposedly a reaction to normalize things, but in fact the TSH itself is an irritant and produces the bad symptoms of hypothyroidism as the TSH rises and with a progesterone deficiency. The absence of progesterone is one problem, but the fact that when progesterone is low, your body increases the luteinizing hormone and the luteinizing hormone is pro-inflammatory
and creates degenerating symptoms. Anytime the basic functional hormone or material is low, the body goes into an emergency reaction in which at the same time that it's trying to correct deficiency, it's turning on a substance such as 1,25-dihydroxy D or luteinizing hormone or thyroid stimulating hormone, which in the process of adjusting has lots of dangerous toxic side effects. In the case of 1,25-hydroxy D, these unwindered side effects include obesity and osteoporosis. Welcome to the Win At Life Podcast, a place where we share everything you need to know
about restoring your metabolism so you can break free from restrictive diets and build a body and life you love. I'm Kitty Blomfield, co-founder of NuStrength and your host for this episode and today we're joined by our good friend Kate Deering, author of How to Heal Your Metabolism for those who listen to the podcast. You'll know who Kate is and if you haven't read her book, I highly recommend that you read it. I'll drop a link in the show notes with the discount code so you can
either buy it from us or you can buy it on Audible, you can pretty much buy it anywhere. But today we're also joined by Dr. Ray Peat and we had such great feedback from the podcast that we did with him a few months ago so we thought we'd get him on again to talk about vitamin D supplementation. Yeah and so we got a series of 30 questions from everybody that we want to talk about and I kind of want people to think about when they're listening to this podcast because there's such controversy
between vitamin D supplements or to take them to not to take them, is you need to see the viewpoint of what each argument is coming from and what we've kind of realized is if you're kind of an anti-d supplement, you're viewing the organism as maybe calcium is bad and that if you are highly calcified that you need to reduce calcium thus reduce vitamin D which if you're looking at through that lens that would make sense. However in the bioengine, in your viewpoint or pro metabolic
view we see calcium quite differently and we see calcium is very metabolic and if somebody is calcified it's normally because they aren't getting enough calcium and the usually parathyroid hormone or prolactin is increased to pull the calcium from the bone and that's creating the calcification. So we actually want more calcium from our diet thus vitamin D would be supportive and helping us become less calcified. So I think it's important to kind of think of those things as you're listening to this podcast. Again we're not here to tell you what you should think take
everything in and and decide for yourself but ultimately I think it's a good explanation of kind of why vitamin D supplements aren't as bad as many think. Awesome thanks Kate and we'll get straight into it. Hello Dr. Ray Peat and Kate Deering we've had Dr. Peat on the podcast previously and I was just telling him how much awesome feedback we got from that and it's the most downloaded podcast we have on the Win At Life podcast and everyone was saying the information
was just so valuable and it was really easy to understand. So yeah Dr. Peat thanks so much for doing that that podcast. Yeah I just have trouble with my sound system can you hear me now? Yep we can hear you perfect and obviously Kate everyone knows Kate Deering she's been on the podcast a million times always have a joke it should be the Kitty and Kate show. Kate Deering author of how to heal your metabolism. So yeah we just wanted to do a podcast about vitamin D
supplementation didn't we Kate because I think there's just a lot of confusion out there about it. Yeah Kitty and I go back and forth and I know in the community there's a big discussion on you know whether you should or should not supplement who should supplement when you should supplement or is there other things you could possibly do versus supplement and so Dr. Peat was very kind to come on here to offer some clarity and I had decided you know I was going to ask him
7,000 questions I've limited to about 30 so we thought maybe a 24-hour podcast wasn't going to be a good idea so we'll do the best we can to make it as clear and easy to understand as possible. Awesome all right well let's just get let's get stuck into it you've got the question or should I ask the first question? Yeah go ahead for that first one. Okay all right I'll cut the ribbon. Dr. Peat can you please explain how vitamin D3 is utilizing the body? What is its purpose? Is it a vitamin or a hormone?
Those are questions that the best researchers are just now starting to ask for a hundred years people were treating it as just a calcium regulator just a bone builder or tooth builder and so on and their idea of calcium regulation was very limited. When you realize that calcium is involved in every possible cell reaction it's everywhere in everything living and it's a crucial regulator and if vitamin D is mainly a calcium regulator then that says the field of vitamin D
activity is as broad and complex as the whole life question. So what's happening now in vitamin D research is just a few dozen people mostly starting to realize what the real issues are and so that the field is very open and expanding with really interesting stuff happening. For example when you look at it evolutionarily it happens that fish don't really depend very much on vitamin D. Some experiments starving fish totally for vitamin D. Some of them develop spinal defects but some didn't. Living in the ocean minerals are very rich
and it happens that even though fish are generally extremely high in vitamin D content they don't pay much attention to it. It's very hard to treat a vitamin D deficient fish and much of the fish metabolism of vitamin D is getting rid of it. They accumulate it primarily from the food they eat the plankton mostly the animal zoa plankton and so it's just mostly a waste product for the fish and if you think of the cave fish the blind cave fish there's no way they get sunlight or even plankton that has been in the sun
and still they they manage somehow to have bones and to be alive and so on. Apparently caves generally being the result of water carbonic acid in water dissolving away limestone cave water is generally very rich in minerals especially calcium so they are an example of a vitamin D free vertebrate that gets along with just calcium instead of vitamin D. Just real quick so what I hear you saying is are you saying that vitamin D can actually be produced in a being without sunlight and it seems that high mineral content would be very important
to the production of vitamin D? No the cave fish seems to illustrate that the the organism doesn't really need a vitamin D if it has lots of calcium and experiments with various fresh and sea water fish show that they have a very limited need for it. The abundance of calcium has made them handle the whole vitamin D issue mostly as a waste product of eating the the plankton which the cholesterol is converted to cholecalciferol by anything exposed to the sun and if you eat the material containing cholecalciferol it's as if you're taking a vitamin D
supplement capsule and when you yourself are in the sunlight your cholesterol is exposed ultraviolet light gets all the credit for the conversion of of our cholesterol to cholecalciferol but fish experiments show that even incandescent bulbs can activate the conversion of cholesterol to cholecalciferol and even injecting irritants into the skin can produce the conversion of cholesterol to the pre vitamin D or cholecalciferol so it looks as if the production of pre vitamin D or cholecalciferol is a defensive mechanism. Cholecalciferol itself does a whole range of protective anti-stress antioxidant anti-radiation protective defensive processes.
So just for the listener can you basically let them know I mean that the supplemental D is essentially cholecalciferol correct? Yeah it's pre vitamin D the same stuff that fish eat and that we get out of fish and if you think of of people who were in the sunlight constantly producing their own conversion of cholesterol to cholecalciferol they were they didn't need any from the environment but when you move to the north the only way to survive more than
a season or so is to start eating some organism that still is in the sun and still producing cholecalciferol so you either have to live on the coast and eat fish or eat animals which have been in the sunlight so the when you're near the equator and have around the year sunlight exposure then you can be a vegetarian theoretically without the risk of a vitamin D deficiency. So to kind of conclude that I mean what about consuming other foods that are high in vitamin
D like dairy would that be also supportive? Yeah the cows were in the sunlight and so they produced the same material exactly that that fish produced by being in the sunlight or by eating that algae that was in the sunlight or zooplankton that was in the sunlight. Okay so you're saying that any animal or meat or food product that is actually getting sunlight would give some sort of vitamin D to a person? Yeah right except the healthy person after that gets into your bloodstream as the cholecalciferol with its own
whole range of protective effects that your liver hydroxylates it on the number 25 carbon and that produces the what we know and measure in the blood as vitamin D it's what some people have called the storage form of vitamin D but that doesn't really mean much except that the liver does bind enough of the 25-hydroxycholecalciferol to last for a few months and some of it is bound on proteins such as calbindin or the calcium binding protein and it passively dissolves being fairly fat soluble it dissolves into our fat tissues a moderate amount about the same
concentration that you find in the bloodstream so the bigger you are the slight slightly greater amount is stored in your fat tissues besides what's in your liver and that conversion to the hydroxycholecalciferol that happens in the liver can be blocked by a liver problem so a person with a sick liver is going to have probably enough of the plain cholecalciferol but have a very low level of the 25-hydroxycholecalciferol and when you're low very low in that form of the half activated vitamin D especially if your calcium intake is limited then you will activate your kidneys
the traditional story goes that under stress at efficiency of either 25-hydroxycholecalciferol or calcium will cause your liver your kidneys to produce 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol activating the one hydroxylase enzyme in your kidneys but in actuality any inflamed or stressed tissue has that ability to make 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol the old textbooks say it happens only in the kidneys but actually any stress tissue seems to be able to do it cancer cells for example are very good at the one hydroxylation which makes the so-called
active vitamin D okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna wind it back a second because that was a lot of information just kind of try to summarize it so that people can kind of understand and because there's so much terminology as we know in the in the D world there is obviously D3 or cholecalciferol which is the the starting supplementation form and then it does get converted into the 25-OHD or the calcium the calcium were what they refer to as stored and maybe that we'll use that term
if that's okay because I think that's probably easiest to understand it doesn't mean that that's it's only form but that's what it's kind of known in in the language and then it does convert into the active D and I think what you kind of just explained was that the stored D converts into the active D under stress it's not that that is the active form is what is where the active metabolites and all the good stuff is it's that it actually converts when the tissue or when the system is
under stress is that correct yeah I think it's the situation between cholecalciferol or the 25 hydroxy form and the 1,25-dihydroxy the relationship is very analogous to what happens when your thyroid is low your actual thyroid hormone your body increases the TSH thyroid stimulating hormone in supposedly a reaction to normalize things but in fact the TSH itself is an irritant and produces the bad symptoms of hypothyroidism as the TSH rises and with a progesterone deficiency the absence of progesterone is one problem but the fact that when progesterone is low
your body increases the luteinizing hormone and the luteinizing hormone is pro-inflammatory and creates degenerative symptoms any time the basic functional hormone or material is low the body goes into an emergency reaction in which it at the same time that it's trying to correct the deficiency it's turning on a substance such as 1,25-dihydroxy D or luteinizing hormone or thyroid stimulating hormone which in the process of adjusting has lots of dangerous toxic side effects in the case of 1,25-hydroxy D these unwanted side effects include obesity
and osteoporosis for example when the conditions are stressful enough your parathyroid hormone increases and it's the major signal for turning on the one hydroxylase enzyme that so-called activates the vitamin D and when you're dominated by parathyroid hormone and the consequential 1,25-dihydroxy D then you start breaking down your bones and turning off your oxidative metabolism blocking the electron transport chain and creating the conditions for lactic acid production spreading inflammation degeneration and activating the storage of fat creating fat tissue and storing energy and all of the emergency things are activated
by the stress or inflammation that leads to turning on parathyroid hormone and the main two things that will keep your parathyroid hormone down and under control and stop all of those degenerative processes the main things are calcium and vitamin D the 25-hydroxy form okay so essentially what you're saying is the 1,25 or the active form as a lot of people call it D is basically prone and it gives all the inflammatory at high levels of 1,25 D are not good and that's when you get a lot of the inflammatory responses weight gain elevated
lactic acid and so high PTH turns that on and so the only things that are going to parathyroid hormone the only things that can actually directly lower the parathyroid hormone are calcium and the 25 or the store D or just taking a D supplement or sunlight or whatever is that correct yeah and lots of supportive things like sugar keeping your your energy up and preventing fat metabolism the stress of too much fat in your diet suppresses the sugar metabolism and and again turns on all of those pro-inflammatory processes so essentially keeping the body out of
stress and so the elevated 1,25 D is just a one of the many responses your body can adjust to when under stress and that would gotcha okay and so that's just the first question so we could be here for four days um that was super awesome and helpful and I'll and it kind of kind of goes into this next question is uh how is getting vitamin D from sunlight different from getting it from a supplementation are they metabolized different differently or is it they're at some point of
time or they are they are at the same space and it doesn't matter where you're getting them from you get other good effects from the sunlight but basically as far as the vitamin D is concerned I I think they function identically along with the sunlight you're getting visible light which is another thing that activates oxidative metabolism in support of the good kind of vitamin D gotcha so there obviously there's a lot of other benefits of the sunlight I guess one of
the things is that we know that usually most people can't they won't overdose on D by getting too much sunlight right our body has an innate response it will stop D production once we have enough if we're in the sun correct yeah for example you start tanning better when you have enough vitamin D you protect yourself more efficiently by starting to produce the melanin pigment but the vitamin D itself has an anti-radiation effect so you don't even notice you don't sunburn nearly as much what when you're when you have enough of the colecalciferol
in your tissues it's like a radiation resistance factor okay so for somebody that as I mean I definitely have people say that they no longer can tan any longer then when they go out into the sun they just burn so would that be a sign that they are low D yeah for most of my life I would sunburn very very easily just driving in a closed car through a bright landscape my face would get bright red and I would have a shiny red nose from just a few hours of exposure
sideways through the windows of a car and that isn't a very big dose of ultraviolet but I was super sensitive to it and after I started supplementing vitamin D I could spend hours outside in mexico at an altitude of seven or eight thousand feet super intense radiation and not even get a red nose and why do you think that is why do you think that you were not able to get the needed sun or the vitamin D from the sun where that would help
build up the the supplementation is what worked for you I just didn't uh apparently stay in the sun long enough gradually enough once you get the protective level of a vitamin D up then it's easy to go ahead and reach a very high level which has the full range of of protective anti-stress effects but once once you're deficient the fact that you sunburn so easily attempts to make you avoid the sunlight I see so it's essentially like everything else in this
planet that you need to build up so it's a training mechanism to build up your vitamin D levels and your ability to withstand sunlight so it's just that if you did it slow and steady it would work it would be just as effective than actually having a supplementation yeah okay um I want to go back to when you were talking about the the 25D or the the calcifediol also known as a stored D and I think in in a lot of the other communities that talk about it they they say it
is an inactive form and that this inactive form just can't have any sort of response in our system that it's only the 1,25-D that actually has the any sort of response and I know you certainly told me that the the calcifediol or the store D does actually have active form and that's the one that actually produces all the good stuff in our body can you give us a little more detail about that yeah the decisive experiments that show that were the receptor knockout experiments
the vitamin D receptor supposedly responds to the 1,25-dihydroxy but if you knock out that receptor the 25-hydroxy does all of the same functions so neither the receptor nor the 1,25-dihydroxy is essential when you have calcium and the 25-hydroxy and and their knockout experiments with the one hydroxylase two similar results so that kind of goes back to Gilbert Ling's theory that that it's not just about this receptor idea and I know they kind of talk a lot about the VDR the the vitamin D receptors in the um anti-D-supplement group and and essentially what
you're saying is that that doesn't matter yeah the whole cell the whole organism in fact is the real receptor because every receptor is sensitive to context and if you take out the so-called specific protein that's named the receptor still you have the whole context and it turns out that the receptor is just like a an extra leverage point for getting the quick easy change of the physiology but as long as you have a living cell in the whole organism then the specific receptors are just a part of the story not at all the whole
picture so essentially the environment that the cell in has plays a huge role in how the cell reacts to certain substances yeah the cell is always orienting itself to its environment and when you produce an organism without the receptor or the one hydroxylase other things take take over and fill in for the lack of that particular thing I see okay so I guess just for context it's it's good to know that the the cell will respond differently depending on the environment that it's in and if the body is healthier it's going to
respond differently than if the body is unhealthy and if it's under inflammation and is you're not giving it enough sugar or enough other things that cell is going to react very differently than one that is properly supported good thyroid function and so forth yeah that's the high energy state of the cell which is stable and essentially in a resting and and readiness condition if it's lower in energy than any slight disturbance can can throw things off but the cell is more oriented and ready to handle its environment when the whole system
is well energized and well fed gotcha so what about the belief that a vitamin D supplement is actually immune suppressive so some people report that they feel better taking a vitamin d supplement and then one theory is that well the reason you feel better is is because it is suppressing your immune system is what's happening is it's just suppressing the 1-25d and and that's what's making you feel better I i think that's part of it part of the confusion is the definition
of the immune system people talk about wanting to stimulate the immune system but I think that's the last thing we we want to do the immune system it means whatever we do to a damaging threat some kind of the injury then we say that the immune system has been activated but a very healthy organism for example with lots of calcium and vitamin D doesn't even notice it isn't harmed by the presence of the pathogen so the immune system isn't activated by the really healthy organisms for example
98 percent of the really healthy people don't mind having the covid virus it's a minor irritant or disturbing effect when your cells are in a stable highly energized condition it's only the borderline low energy inflamed condition of old age or existing sickness that makes something like the covid virus or a bacterium or whatever a fungus or a toxin and so on the body doesn't get damaged when it's in a healthy energized condition right so I'm going to take a little turn and and say there are some researchers that are utilizing
like a really low vitamin D status to address autoimmune issues and they're saying that if they suppress the d status to well below 12 that they're actually getting responses where people are recovering from an autoimmune issue is there some explanation for that that would be the Trevor Marshall people that would be them correct the I don't like to even call it reasoning it's the application of an engineering metaphor to biology and an electrical engineer for example thinks in terms of hard wiring
and switches and the flow of current and so on and so the idea of receptors and the innate immune processes and all of that fits very well with an engineering orientation and a lot of if not all of Trevor Marshall's ideas are based on what he calls computer modeling and in 2006 he referred to the Olmesartan and similar angiotensin receptor inhibitors called them antagonists of the vitamin D receptor but then in 2017 he was calling them agonists of the vitamin D receptor and saying they restored the vitamin D receptor function and what they
empirically are doing with a mild dose of minocycline it happens to be a very effective anti-inflammatory agent as well as an antibiotic or antibacterial and the sartans, olmesartan or losartan those are very basic effective anti-inflammatory agents and so when you're talking about autoimmune and degenerative diseases both anti-inflammatory agents minocycline and olmesartan are going to reduce the symptoms and I don't think they have any particular either antagonist or receptive or a restorative effect on the vitamin D receptor so so yeah Trevor Marshall uses I think it's venicar to treat
a lot of his patients which is a angiotensin 2 receptor antagonist blood pressure medication but what you're saying is that it may be not even the the suppression of vitamin D that's making the difference it might just be these medications are making the difference yeah I don't think he presents any evidence at all that it has anything to do with the vitamin D receptor it was originally based on so-called computer modeling no experiments really and and then he changed his from antagonist
to agonist and in in fact the sartans in general are very powerful anti-inflammatory protective agents regardless of whether it's rheumatoid arthritis that's the problem or covid infection it's a general all-purpose anti-inflammatory protective substance right I remember you talking about losartan being used in in covid and helped people get through covid so I would imagine that these other ones would work as well very interesting um okay so flipping again could could store d status be a sign of sickness meaning if somebody's d is low um does that mean that they
are sick or does that or like another argument is does is it actual need for more d or is it just a sign that they may be sick and that restoring their health would correct their d um if a person is taking large amounts of a vitamin D supplement and or getting sunlight and still they're circulating uh 25-hydroxycholecalciferol if that is still low I think that means they have a liver inflammatory problem because the liver is a major part that creates
the 25 hydroxy active form but I i think most of the background of the question has to do with the Trevor Marshall's doctrine that there are occult organisms inside cells causing sickness and that his protocol is the way to eventually eliminate those occult organisms so let's say somebody was taking a decent amount of d of getting sunlight and had like I said low d level still their store d was quite low what would you at that point recommend would you say
continue to take more d or is there something else that we need to look at yeah the whole picture of what could be the source of inflammation and liver injury but taking vitamin D isn't going to make the problem worse the way the Trevor people Marshall people say it will okay so at that point what about for somebody who takes a d supplement and it makes them feel absolutely horrible what would happen I've been hearing from a few people who were deteriorating rapidly one thought she was approaching death with
neurological and all kinds of other symptoms and I looked at her diet and supplements and she was supplementing things in a base of medium chain triglycerides and when she stopped everything containing mct all of her symptoms went away and there's one study in which in animals they found that a peanut allergy for example was created in the presence of mct it affects the immune system on the lining of the intestine in a way that destroys our ability to resist andogens and allergens and makes us susceptible to food allergy symptoms
that's interesting I mean the one supplement I usually recommend is carlson's and that is in mct oil so you are saying to avoid the ones in mct oil or if it's if it is creating an irritation it could be the oil might might be okay are they okay to have in mct oil is there one that you know of that is good that is not in those things a lot of people get benefit from them but I think some of the intense bad reactions stop happening when they use a olive oil at base vitamin D
there are several companies that that make a pure olive oil and vitamin D product either in drops or capsules okay do you happen to know any offhand that we don't remember no I don't remember just look for the price at that very tremendously in in cost so a vitamin D in olive oil would would be where to try if if you are currently taking a d supplement and having a bad reaction and I think so lead at low d status okay um what about let's kind of flip into maybe
talking a little about the calcium and d um kind of communication and how they're all intertwined with each other and so well I'm gonna go back real quick um if somebody has low d could it also mean other things meaning I certainly read some research showing that just taking magnesium can raise store d levels so it would it make sense for someone to actually explore other avenues before taking a d supplement like looking at some of the co-factors that go into vitamin D metabolism
yeah for example including milk and cheese in your diet is a good first step to to see whether it might be a calcium magnesium deficiency because those both of those have both of both an activating and stabilizing protective potentially sedating action a quieting effect on inflammation for example so deficiency of either magnesium or calcium can lead to the inflammatory condition that activates the 125 dihydroxy d okay so just being low right in calcium or magnesium will initiate an inflammatory response
which will pull the 25 of the store d down and will elevate your 125 active d numbers is that correct yeah okay okay so our here's an interesting question are high cholesterol levels and low vitamin D status correlated since cholesterol is the precursor for d yeah in old people for example the vitamin D that is active in the skin is greatly reduced and that shows that the cholesterol is a major reason that aging reduces vitamin D production they just aren't putting the cholesterol in the position to be activated by sunlight
so then it would be fair to say that possibly taking a statin or any cholesterol lowering medication is certainly going to affect your vitamin D status yeah it affects everything including vitamin D status okay so that would be certainly something to look at would it be more something if your cholesterol was high would it would you first look at something like thyroid function or a neural deficiency in the 1930s into the 1940s hypothyroidism was very commonly diagnosed by elevated cholesterol and over and over
experimenters within people who had had their thyroid plan removed and in animals showed that thyroid reliably lowers cholesterol as it increases the metabolic rate it's a very predictable event so the whole hypercholesterolemia culture grew up along with the suppression of the existing knowledge of thyroid hormone function so essentially if somebody is high cholesterol I mean not not that you need to take a thyroid but obviously improving thyroid function whether it's for proper diet or de-stressing that alone without even taking a d supplement could improve their d status
yeah the thyroid and vitamin D and calcium are intimately interrelated you can't separate the thyroid from the vitamin D and calcium metabolism gotcha okay um what about can we actually store enough d for the winter months is is that what the summer is all about and essentially for those people that obviously don't have a lot of summer months are they going to be able to get enough d during those months so that will take care of them during the winter or for those people is it pretty evident that they'll need to be taking some
sort of supplementation or certainly eating foods that are certainly high in vitamin D if they have really been in the sun during the summer they will assuming that their liver is fairly healthy their liver is going to store enough for several months of the darkest part of winter but it really depends on how much time they spend outside during the summer and also how good their thyroid status is and their general metabolism but yes the reason eating fish liver or beef liver or whatever is a good source of vitamin D
is that the liver does store a considerable amount of vitamin D okay so kind of getting on that so would you and I know you've gone um and said kind of good and bad so would you say that cod liver oil would be an okay way to supplement vitamin D except that it comes with a considerable amount of fish oil yes and fish oil over time tends to accumulate with pro estrogen effects pro inflammatory pro aging anti thyroid effects
so I don't think it's the best way to get your vitamin D and vitamin A but it is a source in an emergency better to use cod liver oils and to be deficient in vitamin D right but something like beef liver or whole milk would be better options much much better okay and what about let's say milk that has been fortified with vitamin D is that safe the choice of emulsifiers I'm not sure how much latitude there is but I've heard that
polysorbate 80 and polyethylene glycol have been used as emulsifiers for the vitamin A and vitamin D and since some people are very allergic to those polymers you have to be watchful if you have an allergic reaction to milk try a milk that hasn't been supplemented which usually means buying whole milk which hasn't been pasteurized then you can skim it to reduce the very high fat content of the whole milk and get an unadulterated natural milk right and that's one thing I certainly remember I mean over in the states we know that all low fat
milk is has additives of A and D in it I don't think there are any that don't that are low fat and I know you consume a lower fat milk and I usually consume a milk like straws where you can actually skim the fat now if I was to skim the fat aren't I removing a lot of the A and the D that I'm trying to get yeah but a moderate amount like one or two percent fat is all you need for the
vitamins if the cows are healthy okay okay and then you I know you use a lower fat milk do you have a brand that you prefer that seems to do okay for you uh no I just get whatever tastes good some of the organic milks have a really bad taste and that means their cows were eating some kind of odd weeds that I don't like so I go by the taste okay so the so does your grocery
store kind of let you taste test when that would be nice if we could all like you know it like going to a winery you could taste your milk before you purchased it that would be nice but I just don't buy it again when it tastes too bad that's probably good advice Kitty what do you do for your milk are you are you still there I am still here I um we drink low-fat milk Craig likes skim milk because he drink I think skim is what the equivalent because you guys call it different things
we call it low-fat yes you've got one percent and then yeah he drinks the like the really low fat loads he drinks loads of milk I drink the low fat but we're so lucky over here we don't they're not fortified with vitamins which is so awesome so yeah we just get them from our there's a couple of local um dairies that we support that we get our milk from um which is really good but yeah I really feel for all our american and overseas clients because they're always posting about how
they just can't find milk low-fat milk without the added vitamins yeah so I think the takeaway is yet you know you can either buy a milk that's full and try to skim the fat or you know try other ones and if they taste good you know and and you don't have some sort of reaction to it then it's a good milk but some people I find when reintroducing milk that whole seems to be the easiest route because they seem to tolerate the best at least in the beginning so um that's my general advice on
that okay uh still got a bunch so everybody put on their seat belt um so Ray when we measure the stored vitamin D or the calcidiol uh in the blood is is this an accurate number because I always hear about there's certain things like estrogen and iron that you know really doesn't matter what's in the blood it's because it's in the tissue is this a similar case for stored D because there obviously is a lot in the tissue as well um uh no the circulating in the blood you have the
vitamin D binding protein as well as the lipids in the blood that are carrying a large amount of it so it the fat tissues passively act as storage but at a level not much higher than in the blood and when it's in the muscles nerves and so on no one has measured the extracting those vital tissues to see how much of the 25 hydroxy is inside the cells it's assumed that the cells will take up according to what they need probably very similar to the blood level I see I think
you once told me that if you are have a good amount of body fat on you though won't your body store more of that D in the tissue so maybe your numbers won't be as high and that might also be to due to a liver issue the level in the fat tissue corresponds pretty closely to the concentration in the blood so if you have a very big volume of fat tissue at that same concentration then yeah that will act as a storage supplementing what's in your liver I see I see so let's talk about the
optimal number of your stored D like what number because obviously some people promote that anything above 20 doesn't make any sense so there's no biological reason for you or advantage to be above 20 and obviously I think you'd promote more of a 40 to 60 number so what would you say obviously that is what you would say but why would you say the number needs to be higher and and the reasoning behind that one of the functions is to keep your 1,25-dihydroxy
D as low as possible by keeping your parathyroid hormone low so having excess calcium in in your diet and a generous amount of the 25-hydroxy D that is acting as sort of a buffer against any of the irritants and inflammatory de-energized conditions that would threaten to increase your parathyroid hormone and 1,25-dihydroxy so your go ahead the practical level like improving sleep for example being resistant to sunburn that pretty much happens above 50 nanograms per milliliter 50 to 70 seems to be the safe range where it's acting as a buffer
to reduce stress generally and what about some people I mean can you go too high I mean obviously you're not going to go higher than that if you're if you're getting natural sunlight but if you were supplementing I mean what what dangers are there if you if you go to 80 or 90 or 100 people working outdoors for example as a lifeguard have measured 130 nanograms per milliliter and higher and there's no harm evident at all but with a moderate overdose of 1,25-dihydroxy you can easily
create hypercalcemia calcification of of soft tissues demineralization of your bones and other degenerative signs so as long as your calcium intake and 25-hydroxy are in that range I don't know if anyone who has had 200 nanograms per milliliter but no matter how much sun exposure you get maybe 150 ng per ml would be a an upper healthy limit but it's the keeping keeping the 1-25 down preventing the parathyroid hormone from creating the degenerative inflammatory processes so I mean I've read research that will show that a there are healthy people that actually have a low
25d stored D also a low 1,25d and that would be a healthy person and it's the unhealthy person that has a elevated or low 25d but then a very elevated 125d I mean can you be healthy with a number of 20 for a store d number temporarily I I just think the the long range outlet is better when you're in the higher range because you're having a buffer effect actually of an excess beyond what's essential of calcium and 25 hydroxy it gives you the opportunity to undergo some stress without tearing down your bones
and calcifying your arteries okay so for someone that maybe doesn't have a lot of stress in their life and you know is living inside but not really very stressed that could totally work but obviously in today's modern society with a good amount of stress that would not be an ideal number to be protected for the long haul yeah I think so okay okay so let's talk about the vitamin D kind of calcium connection and because obviously I know you definitely your big things that you'd like to
promote thyroid calcium vitamin D and how they all intertwine with each other can you just give me a brief synopsis of how vitamin D and calcium and thyroid all affect each other I'm keeping the calcium bound up so that it doesn't act as an excitement to cells the danger when your energy is low or inflammation is high is that calcium becomes a cell exciter activates a breakdown of protein nucleic acids and the activation of all of the processes that lead to eventually cell death
or loss of function and the vitamin D of the right sort is functioning to activate the proteins that hold vitamin D in a safe condition and in that condition vitamins or calcium is working with progesterone and thyroid as cell stabilizers as having actually a sedative effect an injection of calcium salts can act as an analgesic and as a sedative by promoting the stable relaxed conditions simply being low in energy or having inflammatory signals will activate the improper functions such as calcification of your blood vessels and other
soft tissues and that's where at 1,25-dihydroxy becomes a danger it has a brain excitatory effect which can can seem very good momentarily but at exactly the same process that makes it a brain excite and makes it a blood vessel calcifier by destabilizing the relation between calcium and the structure of the cell so I think one of the confusions about calcium is because you always hear about people are calcified and calcified arteries and blood vessels and their tissue and so people are constantly being told you don't need any more calcium everything's calcified
and can you kind of explain what is really happening so that we can understand that obviously don't want to be calcified but is it due to the fact that somebody is eating too much calcium no it's the same situation with kidney stones people who don't eat enough calcium or don't get enough of the right kind of vitamin D tend to get calcium kidney stones and the mechanism seems to be that your parathyroid hormone increases at your aldosterone and a whole inflammatory system increases the the angiotensin system becomes
activated and the excitation goes with unopposed phosphate action if you have too much phosphate in your diet that activates the calcification process partly by a direct solubility effects inside cells but mostly through activating overproduction of parathyroid hormone so when you talk about getting extra protective calcium in your diet that means relative to somewhat lower phosphate in your diet because both of those effects will lower your parathyroid hormone and the angiotensin system and adrenal stress hormones all of which protects the blood vessels and other soft tissues from calcification
injection of the 1,25-dihydroxy will have exactly the opposite effect or an overdose of parathyroid hormone activating the 1,25-dihydroxy will pull calcium out of your bones give you hypercalcemia and create crystals of calcium and phosphate inside your living cells causing them to first become excited overactive stress producing excess collagen excess nitric oxide and a whole process of degenerative damage leading to a formation of bone fibrous hardening and calcified fiber so it's essentially the opposite so it's not due to ingesting calcium that's creating the issues
it's essentially a lack of calcium and a high phosphorus diet that's triggering the parathyroid hormone to pull calcium from the bones and then that is what essentially is creating all this calcification yeah it's been known now for decades that women with the worst osteoporosis have the most calcified blood vessels gotcha and so obviously and this is obviously why you definitely promote a high calcium to phosphorus diet which essentially is a high dairy diet and low grain and meat diet is that my very reason yeah grains like humus nuts meats and fish all
can create an excess of phosphate in the system activating your parathyroid hormone and during the night just the stress of the darkness of a single night increases your parathyroid hormone and the if you measure the calcium output in the urine of a person who is developing osteoporosis most of the day's calcium loss is in the morning urine because of the elevation of parathyroid hormone during the night breaking down the bones putting making you relatively hypercalcimic hardening your arteries and other tissues and so especially at bedtime milk and vitamin D
are protective against this constant nocturnal loss of calcium so just another reason to have milk and honey before you go to bed to help with that process is that one reason why people are always so stiff in the morning yeah lots of inflammatory things develop during the night if you look at all of the blood changes within about an hour or two or by the middle of the night all of the degenerative stress hormones have increased free fatty acids which are toxic to all of the cells by interrupting your oxidative
use of glucose the free fatty acids rise steadily during the night along with cortisol serotonin estrogen angiotensin parathyroid hormone and all of the things that take take our tissues apart so that's essentially why we're trained to sleep at night right to go into the least stressed position we possibly can because of all of these things that are happening in our system just based on the darkness yeah people have had their blood tested every 15 minutes while either awake during the night or while asleep during the night and if you are soundly
sleeping during the night you'll have a moderate increase of the stress hormones but when you're not sleeping the darkness is several times more destructive all of the stress hormones rise more quickly when you're not asleep so sleep is our obviously adaptive reaction to avoiding those stresses right so if you're a shift worker and have to stay up at night probably something that would help you would be milkshakes and milky drink or high calcium foods or so forth to help kind of support the system during that nighttime yeah and everything that protects
against the shift to fat metabolism of free fatty acids the 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D is able to turn off the oxidative metabolism causing a shift over to the fat dependent metabolism and a shift to the cancer metabolism producing uh uh lactic acid why do you think that the doctors do not take the 1,25 D test I mean do you think that would be more helpful to people to understanding their own vitamin D status if they'd had both 25 D and 125 D taken um yeah the really useful test is the
25 the unconverted form and some doctors measure the 1,25 dihydroxy and if they don't realize that that's an indicator of more of stress than a vitamin D adequacy that can be a good indicator of vitamin D deficiency when your parathyroid hormone and 1,25 dihydroxy are increased right so oh just so if you are going to like if you really wanted to understand somebody's vitamin D status what would be the labs that besides 25 D and 1,25 D that you would have been taped to get to get a really good understanding of where they're
at I think the 25 hydroxy is a good enough test for almost all purposes okay so they wouldn't even need to get like parathyroid hormone basically if you're if your 25 D is low you need more vitamin D or sunlight or you need to get out of stress or a combination of all those yeah there are surgical companies websites that are adding to the confusion by saying you can't lower your parathyroid hormone but by diet or other metabolic effects you have to have your parathyroid hormone
parathyroid then cut out if you have excessive parathyroid hormone but there are these forces actively misinforming the public flatly saying that you you cannot lower parathyroid hormone by eating more calcium and vitamin D but that's absolutely not true right yeah and I also saw studies that just removing phosphorus or eating a low phosphorus diet can improve parathyroid hormone yeah that is pretty well recognized as a cause of the increasing degenerative disease in the population as the high ratio of phosphate to calcium in the diet in the industrial world
yeah that yes so that's most people eating a high meat grain legume nut diet and all avoiding dairy and eating their nut milk so that would be the perfect place to have low vitamin D status right right okay so I real quick I want to get back to just how vitamin D is metabolized and talking about the other co-factors the other minerals or nutrients that are involved in that certainly there's a lot of talk that if you are to take a vitamin D supplement that it will
deplete or use a lot of other nutrients like vitamin A or magnesium potassium copper and so if somebody is already deficient in magnesium and copper and vitamin A would it make more sense to address those issues first before putting a D supplement in I don't think so that's actually important to work on all of them at the same time but the vitamin D itself is part of the calming anti-inflammatory process so the calcium and magnesium are essential and should be done immediately but I don't think the vitamin D supplement is going to make anything worse
yeah one of the conversations is if you increase vitamin D you're going to increase kind of the burn rate of a magnesium and even vitamin A and if you're already deficient in those and since we know that vitamin A is very integrated in iron metabolism that that could actually make iron get more stored in the tissue or can dysregulate iron but also knowing that magnesium is involved in three thousand other enzymatic processes that by giving someone a lot of D and I think what you're
saying is you just need to do it all together but obviously just giving someone D and not doing all the other things you could create a problem I think that idea comes largely from 50 or 60 years ago some animal experiments showed that if you give very large amounts of vitamin B1 thiamine that you you will increase the metabolic rate and for borderline deficient in others it will make the other deficiencies show up more quickly but I don't know of any experiments at all
that would show that happening with vitamin D or magnesium or calcium to a great extent the body can use the boost it gets from one nutrient to reduce its need for the other nutrients such that even adding sodium or potassium can reduce your need for magnesium or calcium simply the alkaline mineral iron has a certain interactive equivalence and the vitamin A and vitamin D do work together but there you would have to be in at an extreme desperately deficient condition before you'd
see one creating a deficiency of the other okay so what you're saying is even though vitamin A is needed in the vitamin D metabolism it really wouldn't matter if you started supplementing even somewhat high dose of D it wouldn't throw off your other nutrients if the other ones weren't being supported at the same time unless you were extremely deficient in them yeah yeah and vitamin A and thyroid have a noticeable interaction so that if you're on if you're borderline for thyroid
function and take a huge vitamin A supplement such as a hundred thousand units you will probably experience a dip in your thyroid activity because thyroid hormone and retinol travel on the same protein and so you'll simply displace one by too much of the other but that is noticeable only in extreme situations I see um I had a thought and then it left my brain so we'll go to the next question which is should people ever take a calcium supplement
or are they harmful no they should get it from food but for example eggshells or powdered oyster shells you can think of it as a food instead of throwing away the the shell of the egg why not powder it up and add it to your omelette it's uh in a in a form that is very assimilable by most people so a calcium carbonate I don't think is is a problem to use as a calcium supplement calcium supplement but some of the counter ions have their own activity so you don't want to take
a very big doses of a calcium lactate or calcium gluconate for example just because that counter ion can have its own metabolic action okay so taking a food supplement like eggshell calcium which I know I I certainly recommend I know you recommend because it is actually a food that is safe to take is is there any way you should take that I've always you know read that calcium is better absorbed with sugar or also vitamin D so is it would it be smart to
take that with something like orange juice or yeah yeah I think with the whole meal so you don't notice any highly purified substance tend to disturb and irritate your stomach and intestine and the calcium high concentration of calcium carbonate it can be irritating there's like too much salt or sugar in a concentrated form it's irritating to the membranes okay so anytime you're going to take a calcium supplement hopefully food source eat it with your entire meal so that you can get everything together because it can be an irritant yeah when you
separate out the major nutrients the intestine is most efficient when it has the most complex mixture of of the major nutrients protein fat and carbohydrate for example if you eat only one component at a time your intestine doesn't recognize it as quite proper food and so it's not as efficient at absorbing any of the ingredients that your your intestine wants a complex natural sort of mixture of nutrients right I think there's always an argument that calcium carbonate isn't absorbed very well and would you just say if you consumed it with your
complete meal and with some sugar that it would absorb much better yeah it becomes calcium chloride in the presence of stomach acid I see I see okay is there any issues with obviously you know I always think milk is a perfect food because it comes with all of the other co-factors like vitamin A and D and magnesium all the supporting agents are all together and I feel like that's you know kind of how mother nature meant it and so when you do do something like a supplement
is there ever a problem to you know just how your body will take it in I've always read if you do too much calcium you're gonna lower your potassium and you'll just throw off your minerals is that is that going to happen or will your body kind of figure it out I yeah the the receptor idea leads to a lot of those worries that are unnecessary the the cells and the intestine and the body in general are very adaptive and basically intelligent about
adjusting what it takes in so that it it uh isn't very easily disturbed okay right because I've heard in circles that if you ingest too much calcium at certain that somehow you can have a thyroid suppressing effect and I think it's because it was gonna lower potassium and other minerals and I and I'm hearing that that's not the case yes that started I think with some pharmaceutical experiments in which they found that taking a thyroxine supplement at the same time you take
a calcium supplement ordering milk slows the absorption of the thyroxine but the a lot of pharmacists are obsessed with the idea of quick absorption but in the case of thyroid for example slow absorption is what you want and with most nutrients slow steady absorption is the best for your system to sort out and use properly okay perfect what about you know you always hear about certain ratios of minerals and one in particular that I've heard of is this calcium-magnesium ratio where you know you hear hey you need to have almost 10 times as much
calcium to magnesium or and then I've also heard the reverse where the magnesium should be much higher than the calcium are you just going back to the entire back to that receptor theory that does that matter do we need to be aware of something like that or should we just eat whole foods and not worry basically yeah the body can sort out great ranges of proportion between calcium and magnesium and milk has quite a lot more calcium than magnesium but a pure milk diet you can't become magnesium deficiency because milk has more than enough magnesium
if you're getting an adequate calcium supply from it okay and that kind of brings me to the next question that and then just so everybody knows we're almost to the finish line which is super exciting but I this has been so interesting um I think a lot of people get this idea this imbalance of minerals because they're using a diagnostic test like a hair mineral uh hair tissue mineral analysis tests and I think you get all these ratios on this test and say oh look you're high
in calcium or you're high in this is that a good test to understand the minerals inside of us no it's a good test of what you wash your hair with okay and just being in a dusty environment or a chemically polluted environment you can tell where a person has been by smelling their hair because it it binds things so easily and it will pull things out out of the water with with a moderate amount of calcium in water uh your hair is going to bind a lot of calcium but if you have
softened water with lots of sodium in it then your hair is going to experience a high sodium rather than calcium environment. Experimenters years ago compared toenails to hair and found the toenails by being constantly protected and the thicker material than hair is much more representative of your actual tissue mineral levels but still your toenails take about six months to get long enough to clip off and so the hair is is convenient and if you clip it close to your skin you can get hair that has only been exposed to the environment
for several days but still just one one shampoo with hard water is going to fill your hair with calcium or magnesium. What about hair pulled it what if they pull the root would that make a difference? Yeah if you measure just the the knob on the end you would get more would it still be an accurate even like I said if you were able to use the hair that hadn't been uh altered by water or air would that hair be a good analysis of the minerals in your body? The water gets pretty far
down the hair shaft so it would have to just be the very knob at the end. Is there any good test outside of ripping your toenail off that sounds a little painful of actually checking minerals in your body I mean is is blood acceptable would that give you some understanding? Yeah if you include all of the blood cells that's going to be a very accurate and repeatable representative for your mineral content. So what test would those be specifically because that's obviously not a
normal test that your doctor's going to do like are you talking about the the red blood cell what's in those? A chemist would just dissolve the whole whole thing in an acid or alkali and just measure the the mineral content in an absolute sense. And you're referencing the blood though? Yeah measurable in the blood yeah okay so but if I wanted to go to my lab and then I wanted to know all of what my minerals were would it I mean because
I can go get copper or magnesium or is it red blood cell magnesium or like what where what would it would it be that I would actually buy from a lab? Well if they're separating your serum and cells centrifuging it and so on then you're only going to be measuring one component of the blood and then you have to know how that component is reflecting what's in the rest of the body. So if you have a very good standard then any particular component is going to be altered
according to the condition of the body but if you want to know the the general body status for minerals in general I think the whole whole blood homogenate would be the appropriate thing to measure. Okay um I had a real a question real quick and it was come in front of what does it mean if somebody has excessively low parathyroid hormones? Like I think that they are probably taking enough vitamin D and calcium and magnesium. So you're basically saying it can't really get too
low like if they're lower than their norm number then you're good. Except when you surgically remove the parathyroid glands if you keep them supplied with magnesium and vitamin D they generally are remarkably healthy. Their sleep improves and remember that aging is a constant increase in parathyroid hormone and the parathyroid hormone every night rises and accelerates the aging process. So it's something that gets worse the older you are and exacerbates the problem. And so the the good benefits of parathyroidectomy in people with kidney disease for example are very impressive.
So basically that is the explanation as you get old everybody when everybody but people under stress certainly you see a lot of osteopenia all osteoporosis or kidney stones starting to occur and that's just a sign that the system is under stress. Correct? I think so. Right. Real quick a question about magnesium. Where would you recommend people get a source? Would you get a food source? And obviously there's a lot of people that you know use a lot of magnesium. Is magnesium
something that most people should be taking since we're all under stress and we're losing it daily? A milk is a very generous source. Coffee is a consistent source. It's a small amount but it can help as a supplement to the milk. Orange juice contributes a moderate amount of meat and fish and the high phosphate foods always contain a considerable amount of magnesium. And if people don't feel like they're getting enough should do you think they should supplement and if they they should supplement is there a preferred magnesium source that you would tell
is a better source? Years and years ago I experimented with magnesium carbonate. I had used it for in Mexico as a counteraction of tourista diarrhea and I always had a little block of magnesium carbonate and a doctor friend was complaining about her horrible uterine cramps and she normally wouldn't consider a nutritional supplement but since she was pretty much immobilized by the discomfort of the cramp she was willing to take a chunk of magnesium carbonate and chew it up and in just about five minutes she looked down at her abdomen
said I can't believe it they stopped completely and it can have almost instantaneous effect of working the way calcium does as a quieting influence but it can be very quick and reliable but the trouble is that many of the manufacturing methods for magnesium carbonate and other magnesium compounds they involve contaminants that can be allergenic and lots and lots of people get a headache or a squeezing allergy symptoms of a variety of types from using magnesium supplements magnesium glycinate so far I haven't heard any serious complaints from that form of it.
Yeah that's that would be the one I prefer and I don't know have you ever tried the magnesium bicarbonate? I know people who use it and like it yeah yeah those seem to be I think the least harsh and the ones that people don't complain obviously magnesium carbonate I think to a lot of people acts as a good laxative so I think things start moving quickly and I don't know if it's that is that because of the carbonate or was that just because of the additives they might have in the
carbonate magnesium itself at a certain level it works as laxative if it's anti-inflammatory sometimes the the bowel is being paralyzed by inflammation and so something which is antispasmodic can let the normal peristalsis take over. Gotcha well that is all the questions I have I don't know if you have anything else to add Ray that was a lot of amazing information I don't know do you think we hopefully covered most of it? Yeah I don't think of anything else.
And well done in an hour and a half too I'm surprised I thought it might take like two and a half hours. Well you know what as I was going I started to realize we'd covered a lot of these other questions I was like okay we kind of covered that and I'm like all right we covered that to start now I was getting a little bit yeah yeah that was awesome. That was so so good on you know like when we did the one with Georgi and Kate and Matt and Benny I think people were
just a bit confused. I think this will be much easier to understand which is good. I hope so. Awesome well thank you so much Ray I'm sure everyone will love this podcast just as much as the last one so much valuable information and thank you so much Kate for putting all those questions to get all those thorough super thorough questions. So I guess maybe just to finish off Kate so are we pro vitamin D? Well I think at the end of the day as Ray said I mean I think that if you
are actually low vitamin D that it's it would be as you say it's not a harmful substance to try and I think Ray would agree I mean you have to take an excessive amount to really get a harmful effect would you agree? Yeah I've never known a person or even a study of the 25-hydroxy D causing harm like five million units continued for a period of time probably can be harmful but I've never run across anyone of people with rheumatoid arthritis when they feel a slight benefit
from five or ten thousand units a day some of them have gone up to twenty thousand or more units per day and not only get complete relief but tend not to have a recurrence so the big doses are pretty consistently therapeutic and once you get the inflammation under control then you don't need to keep such high doses. Great I just had a thought because I've certainly read studies that have shown that people you know they've taken over time and I
can't remember the study but it was they they gave different dosages of vitamin D's to women I think it was like 400 IUs two thousand and ten thousand IUs and then followed them for a significant amount of time and then then found at the end of this study that the ones that were taking the highest amount of D showed more bone loss than the other ones and do you have some explanation as to why that could occur? No I would have to see the details of the study and hope it wasn't done
by a martial disciple. It might have been. Yeah one of the funny things in his 2017 publication was he was connecting not only the restorative effective vitamin of angiotensin blocker on the vitamin D receptor but he was incriminating electro-smog which isn't a good thing but he was incriminating that as a factor in the vitamin D receptor malfunction and he recommended a silver thread cap as a way to protect the brain from the electro-smog and help your vitamin D receptor but probably there is a shielding effect from
silver threads in the cap but why not the whole old-fashioned aluminum hat aluminum foil hat which is an absolute brain shield. Well maybe we'll have to get that study over because there are some out there that I sometimes wonder and I'm sure there might be something in the study that would explain it not just I didn't know so that was awesome and so yeah I think that the takeaway is if you're gonna get vitamin D get some in olive oil. Yeah we'll have a look should we have a I'll have a search
see if we can find some brands because I've never really seen any brands in olive oil. They're mostly I think fine in the MCT oil and most people I know don't have an issue with that but I'm sure as you say they could. I'd certainly have had people tell me they definitely have some very strong reactions with vitamin D and they just cannot take it so it could be that MCT oil. Well we can drop the link to the Carlsen's and try and find some olive oil ones as well.
Absolutely. Yeah awesome well thank you so much Dr. Peat thank you so much Kate and awesome I'm sure we'll probably think of some another awesome topic to have Ray on again. I hope so. Ray it was such a pleasure to talk to you and let me pick your brain for that long length of time I totally appreciate it and enjoy it. Yeah thank you it's fun to think about the the subject it's an area that is going to get more and more interesting as more research opens up what the vitamin D is really doing.
Yeah you're welcome anytime. Great thanks so much have a great day guys or evening I should say bye. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]