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Alright, we should be on the air with Dr. Raymond Peat. This is Politics and Science. I am the host, John Barkhausen, and today we're going to be talking about human health and the physiological implications of some of the chemical processes that happen in the body, namely reduction and oxidation and some of the other factors. My guest today is Dr. Raymond Peat. He has a PhD in biology and speciality in physiology, and Ray, do you want to add anything to that? Yeah, when I was studying for my degree at University of Oregon, I
got interested in oxidative processes as they relate to aging and I've been thinking about what oxidation means and all the ramifications for 40 or 50 years and still curious how it really works. I see, so it's an ongoing scientific endeavor, I suppose, understanding it. Yeah, the idea of electrons moving around in matter, that's one of my longest-standing interests. I think it started when I was a little kid probably, but I'm still not satisfied that anyone knows what an electron is or how it works, but without knowing that you really don't understand
what's going on in oxidation, reduction, pH, free radicals, and so on. Yeah, maybe you could give us a little sense of the history of people trying to understand chemistry. How did it all start, do you think? Well, the famous first demonstration that life processes are material chemistry was when a guy synthesized urea and people had believed that that was maybe done by something special in the life process that couldn't be imitated in the real inert world, but just heating things up on the end and carbon dioxide, I don't remember the exact chemicals, but
it was demonstrated that you can make urea simply mechanically. So people started thinking about the chemical processes that make up life and gradually getting away from the idea that there is something unique about the life process that is distinct from chemistry. I was just reading about, that was a Swedish person, is that correct, who figured out urea? Yeah, and that was I think around the Revolutionary War in 1760-something, but people must have experimented with bodily fluids before then. Was there much research done? Yeah, in the 18th century people were really
figuring out a lot about how organisms work, but the official science, stuff that got published and approved of by the government, that was a very slow process that was usually a hundred years behind the people on the ground who were really thinking about how things work. I mean science for a large part, this is my understanding, was actually a private affair done by usually wealthy people sometimes, or not always I suppose, but... Yeah, rich cranks. So they often put their particular philosophical or religious bent into the physical ideas and
it was because of that personal quality science was really more literary and interesting and artistic before the universities took it over and gradually in physics, I guess the universities took control of it away from the cranks and rich guys in the mid-19th century. And that was the physics that Einstein, for example, being the leading academic physics was being done in Germany and Einstein being Jewish resented the authoritarian dogma of the professors and so he invented something that outwitted authoritarian physics establishment. He sure did. Boy, and
yeah, that sort of reminds me of what a general law of institutionalization that I'm making up here on the spot, but it seems like it takes the the interest out of most fields once it gets franchised like that. I mean religion I think used to be more of a personal experience before the church took over and it sounds like it's the same with science. Yeah, and I think Einstein himself succumbed somewhat to authoritarian attitudes in the case of saying what an electron is and 30 years later, I think he regretted having
set things in motion in that particular direction when he never accepted the quantum mechanics view of reality as based on on randomness and but he was largely responsible for setting that in motion with his theory of the photoelectric effect and the idea of the electron as a discrete particle interacting with a photon as a discrete particle was the key idea in that photoelectric effect a photon of a given energy would dislodge an electron from the solid state giving it a certain voltage and so you can talk about the electron
energy or voltage of a given frequency of light and that particularized or atomized the idea of both light and electrons and that's that's something that Allowed theory to take over and cover up and reject a lot of empirical factual observation relating to light color electrons molecules and so on and I think life Wow So that's interesting. Once you become an icon you have to be very careful what you say because people might take you seriously Yeah, I don't know how conscious he was of that but he was Very persistent in not
Fundamentally going along with with the drift of the quantum physics establishment so so that that view of the electron and Is atoms in general I imagine seeing the electron is an essential part of atomic structure How can you explain further how that actually set us on the wrong track? Yeah You know around the time of the First World War Michael Polanyi had demonstrated a continuous potential Description of how gases are bound or absorbed on the solid surfaces and That that was a smooth sort of process a straight
Relationship between the pressure on the gas and the thickness of the absorbed layer and When he went to Berlin to present his experimental work and theory Einstein and others that was already 10 years beyond the photoelectric theory and the particularization of light electron Energy or structure and Einstein was one of the people that said in the advanced science world here in Germany we know that that just isn't possible because Matter is particular and you're just aren't going to get forces Smoothly extending away from the surface if the
Surface has an electrical property and the gas has an electrical property the first layer of gas atoms hitting that surface is going to perfectly neutralize that so there's no potential extending through space but Polanyi's results Clearly showed that something like that was happening a continuously thickening layer and So Polanyi was defeated the people like Irving Langmuir 15 years later got the Nobel Prize for his idea that gases can only condensed in a monolayer And Polanyi knew it was wrong, but he was a physics professor and He had to teach the Langmuir isotherm
but in his own experimental work Polanyi Went along examining how molecules and crystals solid-state things work and in one Area of research after another he kept seeing Continuity things extending for example in the behavior of a crystal where previously he had shown that gases on the surface of activated charcoal for example for multi layers Working with crystals. He found that the events on the surface of a crystal Affected its elasticity and resistance all the way through so physically The surface doesn't doesn't have the meaning that it seems to in geometry And for example in
Working a crystal back and forth it gets weaker and weaker as as it accumulates some kind of fatigue or memory and J.C. Bose had demonstrated that sort of thing and found that the fatigue could be recovered from in a crystal, but Polanyi was interested in the fact that The weakening involves energy flowing over long distances creating areas of exaggerated weakness and That was the same sort of effect that he saw When the surface of a crystal was wet the surface effect Modified the resistance and elasticity properties of the depth of the crystal So it was
Analogous probably to the the idea of conduction bands in which in metal the electrons are delocalized and The you can think of particulate electrons acting this way, but Polanyi's work suggested that maybe That isn't the the only or necessary way to think of electrons and in When I was in graduate school 1969 or 70 I was reading surface physics, especially as a way to help understand oxidation Biologically and in one of the physics journals A man named Helmut Schwart published a description of a funny experiment In which laser light is shined horizontally through a crystal
while a beam of electrons goes through the other dimension of the crystal through the thin Layer A layer about less than a micron half a micron or so thick and the Electrons passing through the crystal are deflected into a certain pattern Either by the electronic property of the crystal atoms that they pass by so you can see the shape of the crystal reflected in the image of where the electrons hit but Ordinarily that's done exposing electrons passing through the crystal Exposing a piece of photographic film to the electrons and getting a chemical
Change producing the image, but he found taking Even a fluorescent screen away putting an aluminum oxide Coated layer at the bottom that was very non reflective He found that the electron spots were still there, but they had the blue tint of the laser light going sideways through the crystal and so the spots had to be the supposedly discrete particulate electrons for them to be deflected To exactly the right spots Which are used to identify crystal structures and such but at that spot there shouldn't have been any light, but it was
the color of the laser light Modulating in fact the the beam of electrons and that when I Tried to talk to physics professors about it. They simply said it can't happen you can't modulate one electron Mm-hmm, and when you say modulate you mean change color or actually yeah Yeah, the color of an electron is supposed to be its relationship to the atom and what it's doing is is absorbing or interacting with a particular wavelength of the light so the atom is subtracting or maybe fluorescing a color, but it's always
Subtracting or adding something according to the way it is bound to the atom So an electron flying through space It just wasn't acceptable They preferred to say that the person was simply Hallucinating or something? But it was it done at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and They had the best equipment of that sort in the world at the time Wow and a lot of people immediately trying to replicate it Didn't have the same degree of vacuum in their Electron microscope or didn't have the same power of laser
Or or the same quality of crystal making and so on great cleanliness and so on Was part of the original experiment. So a lot of people assert like cold fusion Mm-hmm If it violates the theory and you don't have the same equipment exactly It's very easy to debunk Something just by by doing a slightly different setup and getting different results. Yeah, that's right today's genius Well, actually today's crackpot is possibly tomorrow's genius in many cases very recently Helmut Schwarz who became the head of Germany's research granting institution the government's money dispenser for research
he said that Outsiders are important everywhere. Not just in science You don't get advanced unless you have people Somewhat on the fringe. Yeah, if anybody wants to Google minority opinions in science There's actually a huge amount of information out there Scientists who have been sidelined for their viable research but because it's bucking the current Institutions or the money that's coming into those institutions. They're not getting any Traction with any of their work and in fact a lot of the research is being taken away from them research facilities, so It's a it's a lot bigger
Faction of science than anybody hears about because of course they don't get any press either And I've been noticing that Institutions like the Wikipedia Supposedly the Internet should be an opportunity to Disseminate Dissenting ideas, but the culture of Authoritarian science is so strong that you see it affecting the way Wikipedia works, it's sort of like a sounding board for the most authoritarian Viewpoints in science Yeah, and that makes sense because if you have the money of an institution behind you you have the money to pay a staff member to keep updating Wikipedia and editing anybody's
other input So it's it's kind of like he who has the most resources wins Yeah the argument so I was a little confused about the particulate Electrons versus the is it a wave theory is the alternative or one of the alternatives to that? What's wrong with the particles? well you Since you can't explain Many events in terms of particles It becomes a sort of mathematical magic to try to make up theories to explain results like Polanyi or Schwart's and Albert Szent-Gyorgyi used conventional Quantum thinking about electrons and
went went a long way towards explaining as some of the Biological phenomena that people hadn't been able to even perceive But that doesn't mean that that it necessarily validates the the particulate Electron just because you you can explain some important phenomena and so I think it should mean that The whole idea of What matter is how an electron? works whether It might be that There is an electrical Ether like material which breaks up in different ways Into Apparently discrete electrons, but That rather than being an eternally discrete particle like a proton is supposed to be
The electron might be sort of an ad hoc Interpretation which the wave interpretation Is approaching that idea? that the and some of the subatomic Thinkers are saying that maybe this great variety of Subatomic particles being seen with high energy research maybe These are just sort of an ad hoc response of Matter to a particular context or environment or or stimulation. Mm-hmm So it might just be an aspect you're seeing depending on the the medium you're using to see it with. Yeah, exactly see and that would say that
In a different solar system or a different galaxy the atoms are not necessarily Going to be the same exact have the same functionality and That is an implication of Halton Arp's Comments on his galaxy photographs Okay, now that you brought that up you better explain what that means again the he showed that What appeared to be Continuously connected Groups of stars One of the parts Of what seems to be a continuous? Stream of stars one of the parts will have an extreme redshift difference from the other one meaning that they should be
very remote in space, but his pictures show Connections like one is being shot out of the other and he suggests that the one being shot out is newly created and the new matter Has a different way of vibrating Which shows up as a redshift in other words? The atoms are different when when they're fresh I See and and you said I think last time or that another time we talked that a redshift It means something's moving away from you is that in space? I said that's the standard mechanical physics connection like the Doppler effect fun
Passes the frequency drops I See so but you're saying it also could have other implications Yeah, for example light passing close to a star Has a frequency shift and an Israeli physicist astronomer named Dror Sadeh was working in the US and He was Studying at different times the light of of a star passing close to the Sun and of a Beeping quasar pulsar that sends out a certain frequency passing close to the Sun and he kept seeing what seemed to be a time change or a frequency change
Depending on how close the beam came to the Sun and he got an atomic clock at the US Bureau of Standards and mounted another one on the track and connected them by radio as so that they could be synchronized and Then drove up the coast. I think he went up towards Maine and Meanwhile recorded the Relationship between these two clocks as he went and saw that every morning at sunrise Washington DC seemed to be redshifted away from his truck And and his argument was that something about the
Field of the Sun coming on the scene was Shifting the radio Waves that were connecting the the two clocks Otherwise, it would have looked like you had an expanding universe to a ridiculous extent in which Washington was moving Million miles an hour away from Maine Well, I think it may be They seem remarkably out of touch with real life anyway Well, that's fascinating right and and so we're talking about the nature of the universe and ourselves and particularly electrons I guess and electrical feel so you're saying that the that the the Sun's
Electrical field when it or maybe it isn't even electrical but the wave from the Sun of radiation is possibly altering time slightly He I Think he was thinking in terms of Gravitational field. Oh, but I don't know exactly what sunrise would mean. Okay It's in terms of his thinking. How do you spell his name Ray so we could go look up on the internet? What he's up to first name D. R. O. R. Okay Sadeh S a d e h. Okay. Okay. He was killed in radiation poisoning in the Non-atomic bomb laboratories in Israel. Oh
Right the non-atomic bomb laboratories making the bombs. They don't have yeah. Yeah That's terrible So Obviously it makes a difference how you think about electrons and if you're trying to figure out how these molecular processes are happening and This show was going to be about physiology But I guess it makes a real difference of what your general theory of atomic structure is you know the idea of Particular nature of matter Sort of spread or diffused into the thinking process so that atoms the same way Einstein Couldn't tolerate multi-layer adsorption in 1915 Biochemists can't tolerate long-range
processes in biochemistry and One of the Thing things in chemistry that resembled What Polanyi was seeing in in crystals and his other? experiments the inductive effect is at the basis of Really fundamental biological thinking about Coasservate for example Bungenberg de Jong founded a line of thinking that Eventually led to a Gilbert Ling's way of seeing the the cell as a special state of matter and One of the basic and simple chemical physical principles Necessary to think this way is called electronic induction in the molecule and when you have atoms that are
Electron withdrawing or they have an affinity for electrons you put them in the molecule and the Charge or the intensity of the electrons effect Shifts down the molecular chain towards that electron withdrawing atom or group So it's it's like a partial electron and That that's an essential part now of organic chemistry that you have partial charges, but when you really take that seriously and see that this effect Exists everywhere in every molecule in the cell it goes to another level which is the Coordinated or coherent Effects of The Electron Inducing
groups, so you you have a collective kind of reaction And in which you pass a threshold sort of the way liquid water passes to solid water They can be at the same temperature, but someone has to start the process and and then it can go like a cascade all at once the Atoms will fall into place. Hmm. You change the state so You can have a solid water at somewhat above the melting temperature or liquid water well below the freezing temperature if you don't have this cooperativity of molecules and atoms and
when you combine these added these ideas of cooperativity and induction You get These group effects where you have a change of state in effect Which will pass through the bulk of the material So that you can start thinking about how it works with Looking at the effects of pH on a protein okay, but That's the simplest effect of the pH although the same all the way through a solution and the protein With its various charged groups responding to that pH so that the internal fields are
Intensified or decreased according to the pH so you can have a protein expanding or collapsing according to the pH of its surroundings, but Then when you add Other molecules binding or associating with that protein and Those have electron withdrawing or donating properties Then the way that protein responds to a certain pH is different. I see and These electron withdrawing molecules are in a sense a partial oxidation Oxidation being taking away of electrons. Mm-hmm So the degree of oxidation in a molecule defines how electron withdrawing it is and the totality of
molecules with that quality in the system such as a protein or a group of proteins in the solvent that will affect the the global degree of oxidation of the system and When it reaches a certain point instead of just one protein Collapsing or expanding you get the same freeze melt Transition in which one protein triggers another one and so on. I see So you get coherent cooperative types of changes throughout the system That that's where the Tending to think discreetly has been so strongly affected by the the particulate electron particulate proton particulate photon
type of thinking so that people don't like to get involved in those cooperative global effects I see, so I Don't know if I'm gonna probably got this confused, but it sounds like there's several things that affect how quickly a chemical change happens In the body or elsewhere and that one of them is the environment. So the pH surrounding The substance where the change might happen is key. And then the other part is The materials that are attached to that substance
so if you're telling protein and then the protein might have other molecules attached to it that actually enhance or deter the change happening yeah, and that's one of the complexities of the living stages that It if you kill it It doesn't work the same So you have to think of it always in a certain environment hmm That you have to really think of it as a flow from from the environment in and out And the rate of flow and intensity of flow and so on The the way people think about antioxidants even tends to
Turn into a static description rather than a flowing process L is is always when it's alive Maintaining a delicate balance between oxidation and and reduction and so Antioxidants are a dynamic process in which they're also oxidants if they're if you push towards a Dominance of reduction then you kill the cell in in a different way Ray can you back up a little bit and just explain the origin of the word oxidant and and and what it means? um In the 18th century when they were thinking of phlogiston That you had to deflogisticate
Something what does that mean? the it was something that left a burning substance and It meant the exhaustion when when phlogiston had Filled up the space you couldn't burn anything more in it and It made it very hard to understand chemical reactions, but then Priestley and I Guess Lavoisier was another one Two or three people around the same time were we're seeing That there was something Being consumed from the air in the process of burning rather than added to it and the when they
started studying what was being consumed in the air as they saw that it generally made an acid form and so the I think was Priestley who named it the the substance that makes burning possible in the air he called the acid former or the oxygen Oxygen Root for acid or sour mm-hmm So so many acids were formed by oxygen that got its name as the source of acid and It isn't an absolute there are acids without oxygen and and that leads into the the whole issue of pH but
Thinking of oxygen in relation to its ability to form acids That's a very important to integrate with your thinking of what a cell is doing and People tend to have Begun thinking of carbon dioxide is simply a waste product but if you think of the electronic Balance between oxidation and reduction holding the proteins and other things of the cell in a certain very specific state or confirmation Changing the pH is crucial and this partial oxidation that you get at a lower pH which governs the arrangement of the protein and other substances carbon dioxide
turns out to be a universal Balancing factor or a adjuster of the acidic properties of the protein So the the acid formed by oxygen in this case carbon dioxide It's in itself it's an acid as defined by Gilbert Lewis and it doesn't have the protons so you you need talk about the pH really because it's It's a non protic acid just two oxygens in the carbon but this arrangement an oxygen doubly bonded to a carbon Creates that electron withdrawing property the intrinsic partial oxidizing property of that molecule which when it attaches to a protein it
increases the acidity of the protein Making it slightly partially more oxidized more city and that changes its affinity for other things according to how negatively charged its groups are and This this is the kind of thinking that up to the the Gilbert Ling orientation Accounting for cells and their metabolism without the hypothetical membrane and its pumps the pH and the acid property of the protein system maintains by the carbon dioxide produced by oxidation This is the central thing in Explaining why cells can discriminate between sodium and potassium and
calcium and magnesium and all of the discriminations that cells make You don't need a little magic pump moving things in and out that would Consume more energy than the cell has The energy of the cell is really being produced To form Carbon dioxide and the carbon dioxide is changing the and maintaining the properties Preventing excess Electron accumulation And It since it's a continuing streaming process you have oxygen streaming in and carbon dioxide streaming out and the carbon dioxide Reacting as an acid with water Shifts the the property of the the water atom
So the the water joins with the carbon dioxide forming carbonic acid which ionizes You now have a negative charge on the carbon dioxide streaming out of the cell it takes Positive charges out with it otherwise the cell would quickly become highly electrically charged so the movement of oxygen in carbon dioxide out is taking out the sodium and calcium As a streaming continuous maintenance process Wow so this is the Most people have heard of the membrane theory of cells that they're basically bags
Holding this cytoplasm in and this is in case you didn't get this. This is an alternative theory that it's actually being regulated By the products of the mitochondria is that right right so the mitochondria is producing the co2 When it makes the ATP The energy we all use the ATP and so the co2 starts off as an electron acceptor, but then it becomes negatively charged and that bonds with the positive Metal ions the magnesium and calcium Yeah, it doesn't necessarily bond with them, but in leaving they tend to get dragged out, too
I see and why is the co2 leaving? Just because it's being constantly formed inside and it just diffuses out down the gradient So that's like an osmotic pressure um No, yeah, well But the diffusion pressure It's it's going down the gradient like if you put alcohol against water Tend to mix the alcohol will move into the water and the water into the alcohol Until they're more or less even and When you have a high concentration of co2 in the cell at a certain point it starts
Being more at ease outside of the cell I see so it's a diffusion process yeah, and that accounts for taking it out into the extracellular space and the blood and When it gets into the blood it having taken the Sodium and some other things with it It circulates to the lungs and Changes back to carbon dioxide, which is again Going down its gradient from a high concentration in your blood to a lower Concentration in the fresh air you breathe so the the carbon dioxide is leaving the blood and it leaves behind the
Molecules or ions that it took out of the cells and so the Absence of the acidic carbon dioxide in the blood leaves the blood now with a higher pH because of the movement of Sodium and such out of the cell hmm I see So the normal situation is is for a healthy cell to be just faintly under neutrality and for the blood to be definitely over neutrality and like inside the cell 6.9 pH and in the blood 7.4 roughly Okay 7.4 I see so that's a little bit higher than the cell is low. Yeah
Yeah, go on The Lot of people have Seen a disease as caused by a low pH or too much acidity and In the case of stress and Cancer a tumor will become very acidic so that traditional idea has as a basis that An infection or a tumor the inflammation produces high concentration of lactic acid and And a very low pH in that area which does have disruptive toxic effects on that area and so the body is Able generally to correct that and Reduce the inflammation and stop the production of lactic acid, but the
When lactic acid is formed it If the conversion from pyruvic acid to lactic acid Is drawing an extra proton out of the NADH Catalyst that causes the conversion and In taking away this extra proton as as it leaves it In its formation it Raises the pH inside the cell so even though a tumor or an infection is Locally you see excess acid Hydro lactic acid inside the cell that's doing that It's the reverse process you get an increase in the pH inside the cell and
So the cell which is stuck if it gets stuck in producing Lactic acid because it can't produce co2 and that means it also tends to get stuck at a higher pH and this higher pH Changes the whole system And That's that's where you tend to get a self replicating tumor Because the normal acidic conditions maintained by the co2 Are lost I see Okay, that's that's Good to know and maybe you could explain for us. I don't think you have to go through the entire Cycle, but you're talking about
Cellular respiration and I don't think people generally know that pyruvic when you're talking about that you're talking about the products or the process of Making the energy that we all use and could could you just give us a little cliff note version of that? yeah, the Looking at us in our environment. We're really sort of sandwiched between the sugar energy we get from plants and The carbon dioxide that we make as the final product of the energy from the sugar and the Series of Changes in the sugar molecule each Oxidation of that molecule
Adds a little chemical energy to the cell that the cells can use to make proteins As it degrades the sugar it builds up amino acids and proteins and fats and When you're unable to Oxidize the sugar all the way down to carbon dioxide and produce Amylactic acids instead halfway you're losing the greatest part of the energy stored in the glucose molecule and that lack of energy Has its repercussions but when there's really a lack of oxygen to continue the oxidation that NADH which Allowed pyruvic acid to take this shortcut off
into the semi toxic lactic acid That has to be renewed before you can even make another lactic acid So without oxygen You need some kind of oxidant to even continue producing that kind of low energy from sugar to Pyruvic and lactic acid and to do that cells can produce fat And get rid of their electrons by building them in the fat So building fat in a way is an alternative very bad one to Using up oxygen and making co2 So interestingly cancers which get stuck in the Exclusive use of converting glucose or amino acids to
Lactic acid as their energy supply. They also get stuck making fat That becomes their oxygen in effect And then when they Still have mitochondrial function the cell burns fat as it's energy source so it's a Really a deranged and crazy kind of metabolism to produce an irritant lactic acid to And to do that it has to make fat which is then used as fuel with with its own Consequences And is that that's called glycolysis Yeah, it's aerobic glycolysis when you make lactic acid in the presence of oxygen and ordinary anaerobic
Glycolysis is what happens when you Exercise too hard You're you can build up lactic acid In getting out of breath The the blood lactate increases if you exercise faster than your breathing and That's normal. You can a little later consume and oxidize the lactic acid and that's okay when when you Start producing lactic acid even in the presence of oxygen as in the case of cancer or Extreme trauma or shock same thing happens something turns the the trigger So that even though oxygen is is present in shock you will
Waste waste your sugar and make lactic acid. I See so oxygen is there and but it's not you're unable to use it Yeah, and the nervous system is In the case of shock at least the nervous system is involved in making that aerobic glycolysis and So there are quite a few people who have Suggested that the nervous system is involved in in the cancer transition doing the same thing that shock and trauma Can do acutely? hmm Wow, I have to take a short break here and say that you're listening to WM rw lp1 and
We're streaming live at WM rw.org or 95 1 FM and you're listening to politics and science I'm John Barkas and the host and my guest today is Dr. Raymond Peat. He said has a PhD in biology and a speciality in physiology and we're talking around the subject of Oxidation and health and what role oxidation plays in maintaining that health There's More I want to ask you about the The not being able to use the oxygen that's present and Anaerobic it's anaerobic glycolysis, even though there's oxygen there And how aerobic oh
and then it's called aerobic like hell is this I see and I How does the mitochondria make do with burning a fat? How is that even possible? um it's And what what are the problems with that? Oh It produces less carbon dioxide for example, I think that's the main problem The If you develop fat stores you get particles of fat accumulating in the cytoplasm and maybe in the nucleus that Probably have a disruptive effect when you're heavily shifted over to a fat economy I see if the The tumor makes saturated fat as its
first product in in converting sugar to saturated fat But when it's shifting in in the presence of stress when it shifts to burning fat Usually that will go through your fat stores Burning up your your subcutaneous fat quickly, so when the person is very sick with cancer, for example, they get a gaunt initiated look as as their Superficial fat stores are are used up and at the same time They convert amino acids to energy Converting some of it to sugar and some to fat So it starts a wasting process but our stores
the older person gets generally the higher the amount of polyunsaturated fat in their stores and When you're oxidizing polyunsaturated fats that produces more oxidative damage to the mitochondria So it tends to lower the oxidative a part of metabolism and and slow things down in general I See and then people end up feeling a lot less energy levels Generally get run down Yeah that happens in midlife to lots of people that It resembles the cancer metabolism, but it just shows up as fatigue low energy use in general some people or where
Textbooks used to say that you would always lose weight if you ate less than 1700 calories per day Lots of people can maintain their weight on 700 calories a day And That requires turning off of the thyroid function to a great extent and So you're Being wasteful even though you're not using Very much energy at all what you are using Tends to be poorly used and destructive so you tend to reduce your Connective tissue and muscle and and digestive system and so on rather than Just living on on what you're eating or stored fat
Well, so basically basically you're hibernating You got fuzzy I couldn't tell It's very girdly, okay I'm gonna call you back. You back. We'll resume resume. Okay. Okay. Okay. Bye Hello you're on the air, can you hear me? Yeah, you're still a little still gargling Not as bad as it was. Okay, we're you're coming through fine. So if you if you can Put up with it. We can we're good to go. Okay So our fats always the part of the process of respiration oxidizing fats or is that only when you're ill
Yeah, it's only under stress generally and Starvation. Mm-hmm or or diabetes or or a High high level of stress. I see a lot of people are on those ketosis diets where they don't eat any carbohydrates and Does that cause you to burn fats? And protein and protein, right? Yeah, your brain and some other tissues the intestine and red blood cells and various little little areas, but especially the brain and have an absolute requirement for some sugar some glucose and They all get it by breaking down
Amino acids and they get that from eating your tissues if you aren't eating enough amino acids, but if you are eating amino acids as your Energy source fats and amino acids you Turn on the machinery for turning Amino acids into glucose and fat and running that machinery involves turning on stress hormones a whole range of hormones adjust to it and I Think those have chronic harmful effects. I See so I know when people do it they're usually in a very controlled
Setting they go in for regular checkups and I think that I don't actually know but I think they take blood and urine samples and You know, they're trying to make sure you're not actually endangering yourself Most of the proteins that are are being eaten under those systems most of them are too high in phosphate and Usually too high in in this ionine cysteine and tryptophan and cysteine is an excited toxic amino acid and Methionine is involved in in stress and aging when in proportion to its excess so that one of the most effective life extending
Diets is simply to reduce the amount of methionine in the diet drastically So the sulfur amino acids and tryptophan are stress and aging promoters Especially excited toxic damage to the nerves And And the high phosphate for most of the popular proteins The high phosphate is has a lot of excitatory harmful effects the cloth Oh gene and protein that is deficient in Animals that have a very quick aging process that's Largely a phosphate handling protein and The rapid aging produced by lacking that protein and gene is involves accumulating excess phosphate
And that in phosphate you get from eating meat primarily or meat is one of the highest ratios of phosphate to the other minerals But several of the very high quality proteins Even mushrooms have a pretty high ratio of phosphate to calcium milk is Milk and cheese are about half and half which is probably safe, but fruits and leaves leafy green vegetables have a very safe low very low phosphate content relative to Calcium and magnesium and potassium. I see so fruits and vegetables are The best but you're not getting much protein in that case so
You need some milk and cheese, too Yeah, and probably a fairly low protein diet is Very good for the health but in the sense of living a long time but For Maintaining tissue renewal You can't go below a certain amount of tryptophan cysteine and thiamine those are rapid turnover proteins Okay You know I think Ray I'm going to turn to some of the questions I receive from people in preparation for the show because I know if I wait We're gonna be short on time, and I want to make sure you have time to answer them
Last week we talked about or you mentioned Luca Turin and his research on I think it was odors and the electrical nature of odors he had maybe you could when you get to answering this you could go over that a little bit, but Somebody wanted to know what your feelings are about multiple chemical sensitivity and that's pretty common these days a lot of people can be made very ill by a perfume or the smell of bounce and What do you think of is going on and does that relate to Luca Turin's work?
yeah, I think it does and See he was Talking specifically about Smell and and psychoactive like antidepressant chemicals and there is when you look at the what's in common between Smelling and Having the antidepressant effect of some chemicals what's in common is the resonance state or the tuning of the molecule to the Oxidation state Which is in this context of partially oxidized proteins in a coherent cooperative system The whole system has to be tuned to a certain level of reduction and oxidation and
The the addition of a chemical whether it's an antidepressant or a perfume molecule and Passes along the conductive Pathways of the nervous system and Cells all through the body are are involved in The delicate nerve balances the vegetative or autonomic nervous system Regulates the state of inflammation of the tissues for example There are lots of cells closely associated with fibers of the nervous system Cells called mast cells for example that can regulate inflammation all through the body in the brain as well as all the other tissues and and these are are connected and
Balanced with with the nervous system. So a slight shift in your autonomic nervous system Can Globally change the degree of inflammation all through your body Increasing the amount of histamine and serotonin and the various products of the mast cells this is when a person is under stress chronically these inflammatory things tend to rise and When you increase your intensity of mitochondrial respiration and your level of carbon dioxide that Stabilizes the system backs away from that excess inflammatory reductive impulse but When you're right on the edge Just balanced not intense enough oxidation going on then a
perfume molecule or a Psychoactive chemical or a food molecule can Send impulses through your system shifting you away from the oxidative excitatory processes towards the Side of your nervous system that becomes dominant in shock So I think the the chronic fatigue and chemical sensitivity inflammatory states Are In effect a variation on the physiology of shock Hmm, that's really fascinating I mean, it's amazing that somebody can actually wear a product because they like the smell but that same product The smell of which can make somebody else deadly ill um, yeah, I think it's a
Depends on the way you're nervous and chemical system is is tuned up I mean everything oxidation and reduction is involved in and all of our processes that are Chemical. Yeah lactic acid Is a reductant as well as a product of of being reduced And turning it into lactic acid from pyruvic acid Involves an electronic addition or reduction but it then when it goes to a balanced or healthy healthy cell It shifts the balance towards reduction And if you have oxygen in that cell, it's okay. The electrons will be consumed but
Lactic acid itself has this potential for shifting the balance for example in the mast cells that are signals for more inflammation Too much lactic acid will activate their releases and so systemically letting too much lactic acid circulate is adding to the The inflammatory state And I know you've told me before people might be interested in this that you're not very fond of yogurt because of the lactic acid so you can actually Absorb lactic acid from your food directly. I mean, yeah, there are some kinds of yogurt that have very little lactic acid You can
thicken the milk enzymically rather than With a lot of acid and those very mild yogurts aren't Especially harmful, but if they're very sour with lactic acid and if your liver is On edge not enough thyroid function then That slight shift in towards the reduction side Can have systemic effects and can bring on allergic reactions migraine headaches and such and So just talking specifically about yogurt if you we have a local yogurt Maker around here and I find if you buy it immediately
You know as soon as it comes out, there's hardly no apparent lactic acid in it But the longer it sits the more the acids separates from the actual Milk product so I'm wondering is that acid Forming as it goes or is it always in there and you just shouldn't eat it period? No, the Bacteria are making it. Okay So a young a young yogurt would be fine Yeah, I think so. Okay Yeah, because that you can also strain your yogurt which is the same as buying Greek yogurt
And that gets rid of it and basically makes a thicker or cheesier Thank you product. Yeah, that's the idea of cottage cheese They drain away most of the fluid the way And that takes away the almost all of the lactic acid for most cheeses Okay. Well, that's good to know that fresh yogurt is okay. I guess got a question coming in on the same subject We were talking about a second ago From Duncan. I bought a perfume base from a chemical company some years ago
And it was so toxic that UPS was afraid to deliver it. I had to go pick it up myself on the MSDS toxicity scale Which goes from 0 to 4 this was a 6 Yep, two points over the max for chemical toxicity Perfumes are very poisonous. He concludes. What's the MSDS? Is that the manufacturers? Safety data sheet. Thank you. Yes. All right, and he also asked you contribute to Wikipedia No, okay, and I'll go ahead someone has asked me to Comment on the association induction hypothesis Article a very good long article
Describing Gilbert things theory a lot of people are jumping on it Saying that it should be Eliminated from Wikipedia because it's wrong Wow, well, that's surprising. I wonder if I've Gerald Pollack who also basically Derived a lot of his work from Gilbert Lange and says so I wonder if he might be there defending him Yeah, I I don't know how you get involved. I When I find out I think I'll Say keep it, please. Yeah, okay That would be good. Um
Let's see, and I have some more questions here. I should I'm gonna find them so we get to them before the show is over This is from Paul He says I am a 34 year old male and since about eight months Type one diabetic. I believe I got diabetes after x-rays from my dentist I'm curious if you think that's possible. I take daily insulin and follow a pro metabolic diet. I supplement aspirin vitamin a vitamin e vitamin K b1 b3 glycine pregnenolone magnesium glycinate
I am still in a so-called honeymoon phase and I would very much like to prolong this phase or even get off all insulin Do you have any tips or supplements? I might add to my regimen and he says thank you from the bottom of his heart Before I was born my father had extreme diabetes went down to Something like 90 pounds or less couldn't assimilate any kind of food even pure protein Raised his urine glucose tremendously and looking at old Naturopathic remedies He started eating as his only food
Brewers yeast gator, I guess two cups a day at first and immediately stopped producing so much Glucose in his urine and in a few months was completely well Every maybe five years or so after that he would Eat some extra brewers yeast, but never had any symptom of diabetes after that and I think part of that effect is the the hormones in the yeast which stimulate Regeneration and high potassium content which has an insulin like action And the high B vitamins But having enough glucose so that you don't draw any
Polyunsaturated fats out of storage. Those are very toxic to the The pen the insulin producing cells in the pancreas They are Normally, they're constantly turning over the beta cells are being renewed constantly and in a diabetic they're being renewed but they die quickly and Sugar is a factor that will prolong their lifespan It doesn't need anything to stimulate renewal just to prevent them being killed primarily by the polyunsaturated fats and the Nitric oxide is Soon after It was discovered that the body produces its own nitric oxide in the early 90s many
articles came out demonstrating that nitric oxide is specifically what kills the beta cells and so you definitely don't want to Do anything that? Would increase your nitric oxide production. What kind of activity does that well? supplementing Arginine or foods high in arginine Wouldn't probably be desirable okay, and I think the the effects of aspirin and the B vitamins and the vitamin E Pregnenol and then progesterone and DHEA Around 1985 I think it was someone gave rabbits diabetes with a chemical toxin and then gave them a supplement of DHEA and
That was the only difference the ones that got the DHEA Regenerated healthy insulin producing pancreases Hmm And that has to be taken in small amounts. Are you converted to estrogen? Is that right? Yeah, 10 to 15 milligrams is probably a safe amount All right, and and one of the things that I think everybody will be surprised by is that you're actually advocating taking sugar or glucose Which is a couple of articles on my website I give some of the history of that in The late 19th century a couple of doctors described cases that they cured
from really advanced terminal diabetes people losing weight terrific rate they added Something like 12 ounces per day of sugar to an otherwise good diet regular high protein and vegetables and Milk and so on. Hmm, but just by adding 12 ounces of sugar to that diet In just a few weeks people came back from near death Hmm and I guess their logic was since they were urinating out so much of their bodily sugar They figured maybe they were short on sugar. Yeah exactly, they their reasoning at first was They're dying so fast. They're putting out
The equivalent of a pound of tissue Converted to sugar every day and Just to slow down their starvation process. They said them and and they crave sugar. Why not let them eat what they crave and maybe slow down their death, but instead they Stopped wasting away and came back. Hmm And I want to go back a little bit to because I think I did the person who asked the Multiple chemical sensitivity question a little short shrift and that I never asked you. What can somebody do? if if they're suffering from multiple chemical sensitivity I'm
supplementing thyroid is the usual thing, but sometimes they're very low in cholesterol and since thyroid works partly through Converting cholesterol to Hormones like progesterone DHA and pregnenolone If your cholesterol is too low thyroid alone doesn't necessarily do it so Supplementing one or more of those will very quickly often relieve the Exaggerated sensitivity. Hmm Okay And it sounds like you said that the the rabbits were given diabetes just by being poisoned With a toxin and it sounds like that's happened. A lot of our diseases are actually environmentally caused it's You know, I know
they say a lot of people have predispositions to cancer and diabetes and stuff like that, but I personally suspect a lot of it is just environmentally from the from the pollution that's inevitable in our industrial society you know when I was starting on my dissertation project I wondered what What the factors were that? slowed down oxidative processes in aging and As I looked around at the possibilities, I saw that the same type of deterioration the same biochemical patterns of interference with mitochondrial Respiration were produced by a great variety of stresses radiation ionizing radiation or
even ultraviolet to excess Had an effect similar to all of the estrogens and the aromatic hydrocarbon carcinogens and hydrocarbons that produce excitation and inflammation and Polyunsaturated fatty acids produce the same the same pattern of deterioration and the vitamin E supplement was found to Stop the characteristic damage. They were seeing in lab rats and industrial animals for my feeding them too much unsaturated fat and my thesis advisor found that The effects of too much estrogen were corrected by a very large vitamin E supplement and Others were finding that vitamin E protects even against radiation and sunburn
and so some of the processes like the breakdown of polyunsaturated fats are Increasing our susceptibility to damage from all of those stressors radiation estrogen Toxic heavy metals and so on. Mm-hmm and Ray is referring to the the liquid oils that Everywhere in our food supply the canola oil I Think you think olive oils not too bad and butter is good But all the vegetable oils except for coconut are not a good idea yeah, olive oil has only you know, eight or ten percent of the Unstable polyunsaturated
butter and coconut oil have two or maybe three percent of the unstable ones I've recently finally Shifted for in accordance with something that I read about 40 years ago on the absence of cancer in animals that were fed different types of oil coconut oil was safer than olive oil which was safer than safflower oil and the polyunsaturated but the safest of them all was hydrogenated coconut oil Recently I found a place to get some Just to try it out and it has a very nice
Clean taste and texture and it's it's free of trans fatty acids as well as polyunsaturated fats. No blues the supplier Doesn't supply a retail only Car lot loads. So did you get a semi is it parked out back? Behind your house Was a very Involved process to get oh, yeah a few gallons of it. Well, sometimes you can Say you're thinking of buying a semi, but you just want a sample. Yeah. Yeah Well, that's interesting. Did some of the animals get to eat butter? Oh Yeah Butter and coconut oil. Uh-huh. We're the safest natural oils
Okay, and so let's talk about this is another thing that confuses me about oxidation reduction is sometimes They refer to it as hydrogen hydrogenation or dehydrogenation But they're still talking about oxidation and reduction, aren't they? Yeah, it's just a movement of electrons that they're talking about the when we make what when we Turn saturated fat into unsaturated fat in our own bodies we Dehydrogenated And when a cow turns Unsaturated fat from their food into saturated fat for the butter It's bacteria in their intestine and rumen which is saturating it hydrogenating it so Dehydrogenation it is
Something that we do In our own body I see and maybe you could describe for us What is actually happening to the molecule is it you're actually removing the hydrogen and then that's what They're actually referring to the electron the movement of electrons out of the bonds is what makes a difference and the The usual thing that you move is a hydrogen atom or two hydrogen atoms And when you take those away the like if it's on the to a draining carbon atoms in a fat molecule
There was a bond of two electrons between the carbons you take away a hydrogen from each one and it takes It's the proton and one electron leave in each case and they combine to hydrogen atoms Turn into hydrogen gas or go to some other molecule and the left behind Electrons Join with each other. So you get a double bond for electrons and joining those carbon atoms and the absence of This space filling hydrogen Seems to leave that range of electrons between carbons open and more reactive So the
when you get a lot of hydrogens removed that makes Access of oxygen atoms to the fat molecule easier. Hmm. I See so that's why Crisco is actually a liquid oil, but it's been had the hydrogen added to it and that Makes it more stable Yeah, and if they would complete the process the way they do in Changing coconut oil from two or three percent PUFA to zero percent PUFA you wouldn't get the trans-fat in it and so you would have totally saturated and mostly stearic acid In Crisco and that would be safe
One group of researchers found that aged defective mitochondria That were not respiring properly when they Gave them fully saturated I think was peanut oil Restored mitochondrial function Wow So it's a it's a way of purifying it. Um yeah, and and it Eliminates the Unstable quality that makes things susceptible to oxidation There Physiologically, there's something called the saturation index you can look at a person's red blood cells and find the ratio of stearic acid fully saturated to linoleic acid or linoleic different degrees of unsaturation and and the longer
Even more unsaturated and people with cancer have a low saturation index It's a very stabilizing thing to yeah, like like a newborn baby is highly saturated in its fats In recent years a lot of Nutrition oriented doctors are saying you must give babies fish oil. Oh god other highly highly unsaturated things because most babies are born Deficient in the essential fatty acids, but that's the normal state of a newborn. Yeah animal. That's strange because It just shows how disconnected The medical authorities are with nature. I
Mean if you'd ever look for anything to for an idea of what perfection is you I think you'd look at a newborn creature Yeah, the rate of oxidation is highest I'm not not sure how much how you would compare the prenatal oxidative state but right at the newborn the Consumption of Oxygen and the sugar per gram of tissue is higher than it will ever be later And it decreases Especially at puberty with the the rise of the sex hormones the oxidation rate decreases more sharply and mortality rate increases as the Oxidation rate decreases Right, so
That makes perfect sense now I better get back to my questions here from Interested people Martin asks about salt and these are three questions about salt and I'll just run through them as quickly as I can Can salt ingestion trigger migraines in Some predisposed people example mass max gerson and what would be the cycle? I excuse me, what would be the physiological explanation? Shall I read them all or do you want to take them one at a time? Oh Are they related to the salt? Yeah, they're all about salt restriction Yeah
The others, okay. Here's number two. Here's number two. Do you believe salt restriction was useful in the University of Munich's? 1928 Tuberculosis trial with Max Gerson's diet under the supervision of Ferdinand sour brush if yes was the beneficial effect due to a release of excess intracellular water and three if salt restriction is useful in evacuating excess intracellular water present in Degenerative diseases is it useful to keep restricting it once this excess? Intercellular water has been evacuated should cancer patients keep avoiding salt after a few months of a saltless diet
Um, yeah, I read Gerson's book and he was Very very good thorough Saw the effects of the diet first on migraines and then tuberculosis and then cancer and He tried to understand it and he Seems to have read that just about everything in the first half of the century on the subject and The the salts are extremely important the other Contemporary of his Cancer researcher Had a very interesting parallel Set of facts regarding salt William Frederick Koch who was a chemistry professor at Michigan Early in the century Was studying the removal of the parathyroid glands
and a calcium supplement was The typical remedy for the cramping Reaction to the removal of the parathyroid and the doctrine was developed that the parathyroid regulates Calcium and and so you need to replace calcium when the gland is removed but Koch Did the surgery on animals and found that if he gave them? extra Potassium or sodium or magnesium it had the same purity of effect And The Essential fact was that one of these can make up for a deficiency of the other and The Gerson diet was extremely high in The other minerals especially potassium and
There the diet always had The amount of sodium that you would have in in juice leaves and fruits and vegetables and so on so it was always a physiological amount of sodium but often a very excessive large amount of potassium and Magnesium and I think these were the essence of Gerson's success rather than just the reducing sodium because When you look at particular experiments Sodium it can stimulate the respiration of a cell and and Cause it to Unswell give up excess water if you
Lower the the other minerals and give it too much sodium you can force it To swell and take up water, but it's normal physiological function is to act as a stimulant Calcium tends to do to do the same but the Cell normally is excluding sodium and It perceives sodium as an irritant or stimulant and revs up its oxidative metabolism When it Has a little extra sodium and the increased oxidative metabolism Produces carbon dioxide and restores the balance So when they're in balance The right amount of sodium is increasing energy production and decreasing cell water content
And the Much of this stuff hadn't been specifically examined during Gerson's lifetime, but he was definitely on to something and was curing migraine and cancer but he very typically would give his patients a couple of grains of armor thyroid and Very often coffee enemas and and they were always having a Very high ratio of carbohydrate to protein so they were low on the methionine and tryptophan and the Potentially toxic amino acids And Generally lots of things in this program were very well well founded but
There just wasn't enough information at that time about about how the balance of the alkaline minerals works Yeah, and it sounds like there's so many variables going on there that it would be hard to pin down any one cause or Yep, the aldosterone One of my first physiological experiments was on myself When I worked in the woods our cook was cracked on the idea that hard physical labor meant you sweated a lot and needed to replenish your salt and
That so he would put I think it was about a tablespoon of salt in everyone's porridge in the morning if you didn't eat your porridge, you didn't get your ham and eggs on steak and Everyone doing it and I Within a few days of doing that. I found that The sweat that dripped down my forehead was leaving salt crystal trails on my glasses And my eyebrows looked like they were coated with snow from the salt crystals and I
Thought of the trick of saying that I had been put on a low salt diet. So I got normal porridge here from then on and Immediately I I could sweat distilled water and have I On the high salt diet. I had to take salt salt pills about 11 o'clock in the morning Otherwise, I started getting faint needed to replenish the salt was pouring out so fast But after the low salt diet, I never needed afternoon salt pills again You mean the overdose of salt sort of stopped your body from being able to regulate it properly
yeah, and and the when you're Cutting back on the sodium One of the first reactions is that your aldosterone is increased and aldosterone Lets you retain the sodium, but it doesn't at the expense of losing some potassium and magnesium So if your diet is high in calcium and magnesium And Potassium then there isn't any problem with the low sodium intake but chronically that high aldosterone has a pro-inflammatory effect and and so chronically Getting more of all of the alkaline minerals than you really need is a safety precaution that
will suppress your aldosterone and protect your heart from Inflammation and fibrosis and hypertension and so on so in the long run Sodium has this protection against cell swelling inflammation fibrosis inflammation And in if taken in reasonable amounts it tastes good too And what about can salt ingestion trigger migraines in some predisposed people? Yeah, when when you're already on a low salt diet and Take salt one of the common physiology experiments is to have people drink a quart of plain water or a quart of plain water with a heaping teaspoon of salt added to it and
at the end of the physiology lab Everyone who got the unsalted quarter water Would have formed about a quart of urine and the ones that got the salt didn't have any extra forming And it took a usually a couple days For that excess water to to come out So when you take a sudden dose of salt it makes you swell up and retain water until your Aldosterone has adjusted downward. I see so it just takes a while to do it adjust to it Yeah, and you'll notice Anything that is
Susceptible will swell up your fingers and toes and and lips and eyelids and such might swell up in the first day after you eat a lot of salt, but people who For example on a long airplane trip would always get swollen feet If they adjusted two or three days in advance by eating extra salt on some baking soda They didn't get swollen feet from sitting still anymore. Huh? I see, so So you're retaining the you're retaining the liquid then and in a different place or are you not? No, you're suppressing the aldosterone. So it
Gets the water out of you the one of the ways sodium works is the albumin molecule is full of negative charges and it holds the sodium In in association so you get a cloud of positive negative charges which holds on the water it keeps the water osmotically held in in your bloodstream If you're low in either albumin or sodium your blood itself loses the osmotic quality and the water stays in your cells and extravascular spaces When the combination of albumin and sodium is present in the blood water
flows out of the tissues into the blood and the blood passing through the kidneys then can get rid of the water that otherwise would sit around in your tissues and that same situation Impairs circulation because your blood volume is low and the fluid volume Outside the blood vessels is is too high. Oh, I see, right and the the anti-diuretic hormone is a another side of this that is a lot more complicated than and responds to distress Estrogen and and a lot of other things where the aldosterone is is pretty closely related to the mineral balance
And what is the anti-diuretic hormone? Is that what are you calling? What is that? It's a pituitary hormone that causes water retention with sodium loss and a low thyroid person old people people after accidents anyone in serious stress The they call it inappropriate secretion of anti-diuretic hormone syndrome and that's very common where edema is the What what is really harmful the brain swells up for example, because the body has too much water and not enough salt and the remedy for that is Just adding sodium but
That's not fundamental and if you do it too fast, you disturb the balance in the different compartments but the basic reason for it is that you aren't producing the carbon dioxide from a thyroid deficiency and the absence of the high production of carbon dioxide means that you aren't able to retain the sodium in your kidneys as as the water passes through and so the low thyroid person loses sodium because the Reverse of the process that happens in other cells in the kidneys carbon dioxide allows the cells to catch and retain sodium Well, that's fascinating and
Can't say I get it all but I understand it a little bit that's that's very interesting Ray. Thanks for explaining all that and I had more questions, but I didn't have any more from other people I think I got I got to them all and anything you want to say to sum up about Staying healthy and keeping your oxidation working. Well, we have about two minutes. Oh Just keeping stress down and the fun up Judging food by Largely by how it tastes rather than by what the experts say. Okay. Well, that's easy advice to follow
so on that note Ray, I really want to thank you for coming on these last two shows and And I'll tell people how to get in touch with your website if they want to read more Then I'll say goodbye Okay. All right. You thank you so much. Thank you so much, Ray Yep, bye